Neil and I have begun our blog-interview on Christianity and as he plans on cross-linking some of the entries, he mentioned the interview on his blog. My first question to Neil was “why do you believe the Bible to be the true word of God?” In response, one of his readers posted the following comment:
Neil, Understand this is coming from the heart and mind of an evangelist. First things first. Make sure he has heard the gospel: Who God is, who we are, were we stand in light of breaking His law (ten commandments), what we must do (repent and trust), what Jesus did on the cross and what it means. Lastly, what happens if we reject this gift. Then….go ahead with the intelectual [sic] discussions on the reliability of biblical texts and manuscripts, apologetics and whatever else. Although we can’t avoid the intelect [sic], this is not where a heart is won. That happens in the conscience. The gospel rightly explained has a way of cutting through everything else. And, you will have done your job whether he recieves [sic] it or not. Think of it this way. If he were to die before you got a chance to tell him the gospel but instead had had several discussions on biblical textual criticisms, then what good will that have done his eternal soul? Hope that is some food for thought. Blessings brother.
First of all, I like the assumption that anyone who doesn’t believe the bible is the word of God has surely never read it…want to have a bible-off, sir? I begin to write back a biting response, but thought better of it – how can one compete with dogma? I’m sure this person means well, but ultimately believes that the only way to make it into his heaven is not only to follow the example of Jesus Christ, but also to believe he is the son of God.
This to me is the ultimate irony – I can spend my life clothing the naked, feeding the hungry and treating the sick, but when I die, all this will mean nothing if I didn’t believe that the man whose tenants I followed was divine. There was a time when this bothered me, but I’m well past that. I now find the idea laughable at best. Besides, if this is really God’s heavenly entry test, then he doesn’t deserve to have me in his heaven anyway.
12 Comments:
I almost deleted that gentleman's comment when he posted it, because I thought it missed the point. He is a street preacher and accustomed to starting conversations and sharing the whole Gospel with people in a single sitting. Some people may come to faith that way, but for most I think it just plants a seed. His point is valid that you don't have to understand every nuance of scriptural integrity to be a believer, but I think it is more than fair for people to ask the tough questions.
But of course, whether 100% of those who identify themselves as Christians faithfully represent Christ or communicate the Gospel perfectly does not determine whether it is true or not.
My approach is a little different than his. I've shared the Gospel that way, but I figure people have the desire and the right to know more of why the Bible is reliable . . . which I why I wrote what I did in response to your first question.
You are right that it is the ultimate irony that loads of good deeds relative to other humans won't get you into Heaven if you haven't put your faith in Jesus Christ as your savior. The Bible is quite clear on that account. Nearly every religion except Christianity has a "works based" system to get you to earn the approval of God. Christianity says that is hopeless - you need the grace of God to be saved.
(By the way, one of the things I've noticed as a Christian is that many of what I would have previously classified as "good deeds" weren't quite as good as I thought, as they were typically for my glory and not God's.)
You probably do know the Bible better than many Christians, but of course entry to Heaven is not based on a Bible quiz. Finding theological flaws with Christians is not terribly difficult (as it is with followers of any other religion or with atheists).
But of course that doesn't prove or disprove the belief systems themselves. You seem to enjoy finding their flaws, which can indeed be humorous (e.g., the guy who was going to ask his mom what he believed). But if you are using that as your ammo that Christianity is false then your reasoning would be as bad as is.
The simple Gospel message is this: We all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. If you confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead then you will be saved (Romans 3:23, 6:23, 10:9) (fyi - it doesn't necessarily say you have to believe Jesus is divine, though that is a core Christian doctrine).
We are either sinners in need of a Savior or we aren't. If 100% of the people identifying themselves as Christians perfectly articulated that message it is only true if the underlying facts are true. And even if you can't find anyone who articulates it perfectly, it is still true if the underlying facts are true.
I assume you would agree that whether you like God's plan or not, He gets to set the rules.
P.S. Authentic Christians are by definition not self-righteous. I'm not saying we never act that way, just that the point of being a Christian is to say you can never be good enough on your own so you have to have Jesus as your Saviour. That is, we aren't righteous enough by ourselves so we need Jesus' righteousness imputed to us.
Seems to me that, literally speaking, the truly self-righteous ones are those who think their good deeds will force God to accept them into Heaven and that they don't need anyone's help.
It's not that I don't think I need any help getting to heaven - I simply have no interest in gaining entry if that believe is a necessity. If that is really the case, then show me to my room in the burning depths of hell - I have a feeling I'll get along better with people there anyway ;-)
I want to ensure that I understand you. Are you saying that if putting your trust in Christ and what He accomplished on your behalf is the only way to Heaven, then you wouldn't want to accept that free gift?
It is hard to answer a question I believe to be so far from reality...if I felt there was any reasonable reason to believe this, then of course my answer would be 'yes.' As it currently stands, I see no more reason to believe this than to believe God revealed himself to a merchant in the seventh century or that God 'chose' a group of people as favored over everyone else and lead them out of Egyptian slavery. Does this come as a surprise to you?
I wasn't surprised that you are skeptical, but I was surprised at your own words that "if" you believed that faith in Jesus was the only way to salvation that you would reject it. You said, "I simply have no interest in gaining entry if that believe is a necessity." That is why I wanted to ensure that I understood you correctly.
I am not surprised that you are skeptical. I was surprised at your own words that "if" you believed that faith in Jesus was the only way to salvation that you would reject it. You said, "I simply have no interest in gaining entry if that believe is a necessity." That is why I wanted to ensure that I understood you correctly.
Hello Nicholas, I'm Ivan a (sometimes) poster at Neil's blog. I justed wanted to comment that most Christians would say that the logical problem with an admission to heaven based on what you've done in the way of "good deeeds" is this: How can there be a cutoff? I mean why (logically) should someone who did 499 "good deeds" not get in when someone who did 500 does? But if there can't be a cutoff, then everyone (and I do mean everyone) gets in {Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot}. God has taken the opposite approach. The admission standard is perfection (you've done everything you should have done and nothing you shouldn't have done). No human [including me] can pass. However, Jesus Christ, being God is perfect. He says if you accept me I will impute my righteousness to you, so that when God looks at you he will see me. In other words Jesus "makes up" the shortfall of our own efforts to bring us to perfection. However, just saying "Lord, Lord" is not enough. An acceptence of Christ that does not change your life is just [empty]words. You should want to perform "good deeds" even while realizing that it is the free gift of grace that has saved you and not your own deeds.
I hope that hasn't muddied the waters and I hope you will continue your interview with Neil.
Hey Nick,
I hesitate to post, since I am not good at a quote for quote discussion of faith, but I couldn't read these comments, about needing to believe that Jesus is divine in order to be saved, without trying to say something.
To paraphrase the Catechism of the Catholic Church: Christ died for all, so we can believe that the Holy Spirit offers all the possibility of salvation. "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity." (CCC 1260)
We believe that God has inscribed His law on the heart of every person and that this law speaks to us in the form of conscience. It is our duty to take steps necessary to form our consciences and it is our duty to follow our consciences. (CCC 1776, 1784, 1785, 1788)
So, we believe that God has created us all to be good, that he sent his Son to provide us a path to salvation, and that he did that for everyone - believers and non-believers. What is that biblical quote... The path is wide, but the gate is narrow? While the Church offers the keys to getting through that gate it does not say that it is impossible to enter without their help. They say that it is impossible to know who will be saved in the end.
Did I muddle that enough? This website might say things better than I can - http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9111chap.asp
- Sarah (Kylie's roommate from co-op days, did you know I converted to Catholicism a few years ago?)
Sarah again, I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't trying to say that only good works would get a person saved.
You need the grace of God, but since the Holy Spirit is always working with us and in us, sometimes despite ourselves, it is possible for "non-believers" to have that grace bestowed upon them. But, we just don't know how that works, so it isn't as straight forward as the grace bestowed through what I will call conventional means.
I may have initially misunderstood the exercise here. For some reason, I got the idea in my head that you and Neil were going to have an exchange or debate of some sort. As such, I have been anticipating your response/rebuttle to his answer of your first question. If it is indeed, just an interview, that is fine. I just wanted to see the back and forth if it was supposed to be coming.
TheEdge,
"Through patience a ruler can be persuaded, and a gentle tongue can break a bone."
(Proverbs 25:15)
I'm having a busy week, but I'll get to my questions soon ;-)
-Nicholas
Post a Comment
<< Home